Transcript

Nicole Donnelly: So I want to know what is inspiring you right now, Kuba? What is it that's really lighting you up and getting you super excited just in life and business in general? What's exciting you? 

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah, like, uh, I think in business, it's, um, just, just learning and discovering after, after running business for, [00:02:00] uh, 16 years, something like that.

I thought that I'm, I'm smart. I know so much, but just, uh, now I got to the point that I know how, how much I don't know. Uh, uh, this is, this is really a, an inspiration to keep learning. To keep discovering the best path, like not, not just to follow somebody else, but what trying to find, um, our own and definitely, you know, like, uh, looking at some business who made success, uh, without, uh, really focusing on pure growth and money.

Of course, famous Patagonia, my, my favorite one that, uh, I really always like to look at them to see that they, they, they succeeded. They, they built a great brand, but at least they tried, they tried to do a lot for in this so called CSR to just lead the charge and show how it can be done.

But this is one thing. And the other thing is, is more close to my business. Like Patagonia is a production company. We are a Snowdog business service company. And for me, the last year when the whole market of it services, uh, was really. Shaken up and there were so many changes and, uh, and, uh, disruptions.

Um, so right, right now it's all about optimizing work, how, how we can work much smarter, deliver better results because we're like working smarter and delivering good enough doesn't mean delivering something wrong or, uh, poor quality. But learning how we can, how we can do it in a, in a best, uh, best way to, to get the best quality for the, uh, for the, for the project, for the job, but in the same time to keep the human factor to like, don't forget that our.

Uh, team members, project managers,  developers,  all specialists, who are part of, of every, project delivery process, there are people, and it's not about optimizing a business like. It's like, so trying to find this way, especially when, when we are facing a challenging time, it's a great inspiration.

Like that's the trying testing and trying different, different ways. And the same time, you know, looking small, small success here and there. This is, this is always, uh, Very inspiring. 

Nicole Donnelly: Oh, I love all of that. I mean, first of all, the fact that you've been in business for 16 years, kudos to you, that's a massive achievement.

Most businesses do not make it that, that long. So the fact that you've been able to do that, and I see your humility, and I think as a business leader, you have to be so humble in order to survive. And I love what you shared about really how you're really trying to learn how to bring out the [00:05:00] humanity and how to, you know, that human side of running a business.

That is so smart and so prescient, I think, because with all of the forces of AI that, you know, is coming upon us, and, you know, artificial intelligence is artificial, and trust is getting so much more difficult. Um, for brands to earn from their customers. Trust is like, trust is currency. So difficult. And, you know, I just came off this amazing marketing retreat where we were talking a lot about trust and how brands can build trust and how it's going to be harder.

And the one thing we kept coming back to because of the forces of AI that are happening is, is this feeling of, you know, the most human brand is going to win. My marketing mentor, Mark Schaefer said that the most human brand wins. And I think you're really onto something by focusing on that with your team internally, because those are your brand advocates.

If your team feels. And, and you know, safe, psychologically safe and like, they're not [00:06:00] just a cog in a wheel and that, that they're going to show up for your customers that way. And your customers are going to feel that human connection to your brand. What do you think? 

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah, but it's like with everything we need, we need to balance.

We need to see Yin and Yang in, in the whole process. Uh, because if we go too far into relationships and, uh, uh, start forget that business is business and we will try to run it as a family and friends. It will fail too. So this is like a uh, trying to not go too far into excel and just pure numbers and You know numbers in the in the statistics, but also don't go the other way So this is a only a very very narrow path Between two huge holes and, uh, I think that's why it's so challenging.

It's, it's not like you can just make a bunch of friends and with those friends, everything will be flying without problems. It's like a, it's a combination of [00:07:00] process, but process who are not, which are not dehumanizing everything. Um, sometimes it's tempting, you know, to, to change everything. Let's just base everything on numbers and forget that there are real people behind numbers.

And the other way is also easy. Like, let's forget about numbers. We are great friends. We are having fun. And like, it's all about being cool and none of them will work. Yeah. So, uh, that's, uh, finding this path is, uh, is the most important thing right 

Nicole Donnelly: now. You always challenge me. I love it. Very good. It's I'm challenging 

Kuba Zwolinski: myself.

So, 

Nicole Donnelly: yeah, yeah, no. What I think, but you're onto something though, is like that it's like an art and a science, right? It's finding that fine line between navigating that fine line is really what's going to make you as a business sink or swim going forward, figuring out how you can, um, layer, layer in AI and some of the automation, right?

That's going to help create some efficiencies in your business while still [00:08:00] identifying what are the parts of your business that need that more human element. Um, that's 

Kuba Zwolinski: human, human element in our work is the, uh, It's the most interesting and beautiful element that yes, the whole, the whole business, but in the same time, we all know that the human element may be also the most disturbing and problematic in this 

Nicole Donnelly: hardest to manage, right?

Kuba Zwolinski: Yes. So, so this balance is so difficult. Sometimes it's so tempting to go, you know, only to one side, but after all, we all spent at work so much time. I think that. Trying to find this balance should be, should be a goal for many people, uh, running a business just to in the, in this world of AI, like always remembering that, you know, it's not only AI, that, that we should, we should keep, uh, this, this, this human factor as an important element.

[00:09:00] Well, we'll see, but like, That is definitely, we can see some business that are trying to find this balance and they succeed. So it is doable. Maybe not the easiest way, but that should be doable. 

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah. I mean, Patagonia has been able to figure it out. There's so many other, Cotopaxi is another one. I don't know if you've heard of Cotopaxi, but they are a really incredible mission driven org too.

Um, that does a lot of work. They donate, um, I can't remember exactly what they donate, but they donate a ton of resources, um, as well. So Cotopaxi is another one. Um, man, this is fantastic. So my friend Andrew's chiming in. Hi, Andrew. Nice to see you. Thanks for joining us. 

Kuba Zwolinski: So 

Nicole Donnelly: that leads me to this. I we're going, I have my questions, but I'm thinking about community because as we look ahead.

You know, and we think about what's really going to kind of hold humanity together as we feel these forces of A. I. And I think right now we're kind of in this loneliness epidemic that's happening because of social media and [00:10:00] people are separated from their families and, you know, it's just the forces of society today have led to more of this kind of You know, a little bit of an epidemic.

And so community seems to me as like a way for, for us to kind of solve that issue. And I think that you are a great example of community building. You've been part of the Magento community for man, way back since the beginning. Right. I'd love to get your opinion on what do you think about like your experience and building community, being part of community?

How has that helped you as a person, as a business owner? And what do you see the role of community being going forward and finding community?

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah, so I think we need to start with the people we need communities. We need some some groups that we belong to Right now you're you're right like especially in this tech business people don't have to come to the office. So they don't But in the same time, one of the most popular benefit and one of the most successful startups are those providing online psychological health.

So, you know, people are feeling better staying at home and working remotely with business all over the world, but in the same time, More and more often they need also remote help. So you know that sometimes it's just someone that you have, you can talk to. Uh, but the real community, like the real life communities or offline communities, uh, we can, we can see some kind of the renaissance of that.

Like, uh, I'm, I'm in the Magento community since 2011. I think the first official Magento conference and and that was something that really attracted me to that platform. Okay, it was, it was a good tool. But then when I learned about people around that, about all the open source e commerce platform movement, that really, that really, It kept me really inspired, like, [00:12:00] you know, what you are, what you, uh, asking your first question.

Uh, so those communities were very important and for years I was, uh, spending a lot of my time in building communities, organizing Meet Magento conference in Poland, helping Meet Magento organizers around the world. just promoting magenta all over the world, but not really magenta as a technology, but magenta as a core of the community.

Nicole Donnelly: Yes, but 

Kuba Zwolinski: but I think communities for a moment. At least in Magento community, there was a slowdown during pandemic, maybe because, you know, the core of the community, the physical events, they were put on hold. But right now we can see that it is coming back. We can see that people want to meet. There are more and more meet Magento events around the world again.

So this is a sign that pandemic hasn't changed it for good. That it was, it was a temporary people stopped [00:13:00] meeting, but right now they want to meet again. And it's a little bit about knowledge sharing, but you know, we can, we can exchange knowledge online. It's like, we don't need conference. We don't need meetup for that.

Uh, but we still want to meet. So yeah, it's like for me, communities are super important, but in the same time, I also, after, after those years, I see some, some downsides. I can see that every community, uh, sooner or later is becoming a bubble and, you know, living in a bubble is, is always bad. 

So important to, you know, to leave this box and leave this bubble and look around. You know, like every community, there are some people who are super active and there are some people who are just following. And, uh, if this balance is, is, is wrong, also the community can, can just, uh, uh, from a healthy community change to something that it's.

Just on the paper that, you know, there is a, there's also a different aspect of community, depending on the business, you know, like it's, it's much easier to create a community when the market is less competitive. So definitely the start of Magento ecosystem was easy because there was a great system and there was a huge demand for Magento services.

So there was almost no competition, like, you know, every, everyone had, had work and, uh, it was clients were waiting in line. So in this, in this, uh, environment, it's really good to have a community. You can help each other, exchange resources, exchange knowledge, but when the market changes and right now there are more platforms, it's not, platforms, it's not only Magento, there are a lot of great platforms, tools for, for building whatever you like.

And it's harder, you know, everyone is competing and those knowledge sharing, it's still there. But on the business level, it's much harder on the freelance level, on the single, like, um, individuals. It's the same, but it's business which is actually powering the community. Like in individual people at some point they can, they can dedicate some time, but we also have like private life.

It's not like we can, we can spend everything just for the business and for the community. It's wrong. It's wrong. So I can, I can tell it from my own experience that sometimes, you know, it's, that's what we, when we started discussing before the, we, we went live. That, uh, being really passionate about your business sometimes may be, may be dangerous because, you know, involvement in business and communities is really blending with your private life and your hobby and everything.

And then you're at some point, you don't know if you are still working or right now on holidays or having your free time or [00:16:00] it's really hard. So communities are still, I think, super important. Important, but it's good to understand that it's not only community. It's not a religion. It's more like a bunch of smart people around some tool that can add a little bit to, to that, to make it better.

It will not create like a huge movement. Um, but, and it needs coordination from the business. Like, like it's, it's not a community that can be really run by itself. It needs a strong support from, from business around because it's a business community after all, after all, we don't do it just for fun. There has to be a business purpose for that.

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah, I think you make a great point about, I mean, I think about all the great communities I've been part of and they are business driven typically. Uh, most of them brands that I love or even marketing groups that I'm a part of communities that I'm a part of. It's all business driven. So I think that's a really key point.

And I'm [00:17:00] actually really intrigued by this idea that communities not, uh, that there's a downside to community. I think that's such an important point. If it almost being a little bit, it can have the potential to be like an echo chamber. And you do have to be very conscious about, you know, making sure that you're hearing other voices.

Kuba Zwolinski: It is about  customer experience. We are customers of, of, of those views and information.

And, uh, I think it is a great idea to force yourself to, to, to see different, different information, different news. But the big problem is that we, that, that it's kind of, uh, masochism. And then it's like, uh, it's, you know, you're hurting yourself because you will have to accept some of those information you don't like.

Like,  in social media, we choose our friends. We ban people we don't like, like,  so all the information we get, they are super nice. There are, there are information we were expecting that we want to [00:19:00] hear usually, of course. Yeah, like, but this is our point of view. So the same, like our community, our bubble, like we hear only, only like the stuff that we like and going outside and listening to different, uh, different sources.

Oh, that's, that's difficult because then you have to sometimes accept that that there is something that you don't like, but it is true. Whatever. Yeah. They're like at this a different point of view and, uh, um, and it, it, it, it can make your life harder with social media may be easier. It's like, you know, like matrix, you are right there, you know, lying in your chamber and being feed with everything.

It's nice. And then it's like, you know, you have no problems. And then. You will go outside of matrix and you know, the life is really tough and difficult and it's like, ah, let's better go back to the matrix. But like, actually social media is like our matrix. We just go to this matrix and we stay there.

Yeah, like, uh, we have our own Instagram bubble, Facebook bubble, LinkedIn bubble, whatever. 

Nicole Donnelly: Oh, you're so right. And there is like a psychological dopamine hit. that you get when you go on the social media platforms and the likes and the comments and everything. I think some, I mean, I feel like as humans, we are wired to just want comfort and pleasure.

It's difficult for us to want to go anywhere else, but there's danger there. Like sometimes I think we're trying to avoid the pain and not try to face the pain or the discomfort. You know, and lean into it. That's what I really respect about you. And you were just talking at the beginning of the show about like, what are you inspired by?

Like, what I heard from you is you were inspired by the challenge. Like you're really like diving into the challenge of how do I figure out how to move this business into the next, into the future and what do I need to do? And that is an example of where people need, like, how can we lean into the pain, the discomfort, the challenge.

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah. Challenges are good. Sometimes they just may be too challenging. But, uh, 

Nicole Donnelly: you're like the devil's advocate. 

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah. Yeah. Always back to community, back to communities.

Yeah. It was really like a huge part of my life. And then, uh, those, those years, I don't regret it. I met amazing people and, uh, that's what, uh, what really built my, you know, like a point of view on many things. So. The community open a lot of doors that you had those people in different places in different cultures.

And you have one topic that connects you in this business. So maybe even if you compete, you can cooperate on some different level. [00:22:00] Like, I don't know if you remember that competition term, this is like competition and operation or cooperation and competition. And, uh, it's difficult. Of course, the more mature businesses and more competitive market, then the competition becomes way harder, but I think it still exists.

There is still a some point. Where companies and individuals to can cooperate to compete on much higher level. So in this term, we just, uh, we just help. They help innovation because we don't have to reinvent the wheel, but we just focus on a, on a better innovation. So the communities, they are different and they need a good understanding on a different, uh, in a different position of business.

Um, but yeah, yeah. For me, definitely. It's an important part. Like I cannot imagine working with a technology that it's not surrounded by a community, by some business and people who wants to contribute, who wants to help, [00:23:00] but it has to be ready for that because it cannot be just a pure commercial technology that it's not giving anything.

For free. It's like, uh, that if something like that happens, Every community sooner or later will, will disappear because you are people we are willing to help to contribute, but sooner or later, we want to see something back. So that's, without that, it's, it's, it's difficult to, to keep being really, um, Inspires to, to, to be still in the community.

Nicole Donnelly: Spoken like a true capitalist.

Kuba Zwolinski: I wouldn't describe myself with those words, but yeah, like maybe like, 

Nicole Donnelly: well, I, I'm really impressed by the community at meet Magento. I think co op, co op petition. Is that what just a co op petition? Yeah. It's very clear that, you know, it's, it's, it's really cool [00:24:00] to see all of these folks who are competitors.

And I think there's, from my perspective as an idealist, I think there's room for everyone, right, wherever you're at. There's, there's, there's room for everyone to, to, um, support each other and to win business. Um, so, but 

Kuba Zwolinski: there's one thing you have to remember. I think this is super important that you, at some point you stop asking if you get exactly the same, what you contributed.

Because this is, this is a very dangerous moment when you think, what I, why I'm giving so much and I don't get anything or I don't, I get only a little bit back. So if you start asking this question, that, that may be like a very dangerous moment in the whole community, uh, because it all works when you don't think about it.

Now, like sometimes you just contribute and someone else will get the benefits, not you. And then it works. But [00:25:00] if you are looking for a direct reward for that, then it's not a community of contributors anymore. It's, it's more like a barter. Yeah. Like you don't get, you don't get money, but you do, you get the same value, uh, in something else.

So that's, that's, that's important. Don't expect exactly the same value of, of, uh, reward for your contribution in the community. Yeah. It's more distributed. 

Nicole Donnelly: I see what you're meaning. I there's like a difference between it being transactional versus connecting and relationship driven. Right. And I found the communities that are really healthy and strong and going to survive are the ones that are really focused on the connection, the relationship rather than how it being a transactional type of type of experience.

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah, of course. You know, that's just my, my experience, one community. And like, from my point of view, but Looks like it may work for other communities too. 

Nicole Donnelly: I think there's a lot of truth to that and wisdom. Um, and I loved too, what you said too, about when you're very passionate about something, this is something you mentioned a little bit earlier, sometimes in business, when, if you're too passionate about it and you want it to be too perfect, it actually can harm or hurt.

You know, um, what you're trying to accomplish, especially in business. And you have to find that fine balance. I think that's really wise advice. Well, let's talk about customer experience. You've been doing a lot of work in this area, Cuba, um, specifically talking about what brands can be doing to cultivate.

The ideal customer experience that really is accessible to everyone, as many people as possible. And so I'd love for you to share a little bit about kind of what led you to this point. And when you think about, um, you know, creating a world class customer experience, what do you see are some of the top priorities, um, that brands need to be thinking about when they're creating that experience?[00:27:00] 

Kuba Zwolinski: Uh, I think. The whole experience is about, uh, being unified across different channels. It's important that we are not creating different experiences, but every, every brand has to be unique. the same feeling that wherever you touch the brand, it, you, you will get the same customer experience or, um, because that, that gives you, uh, more, you feel more secure.

That is the same brand you trust. And, uh, and of course every piece. Of, of the every touch point, uh, should, should, should reflect that the same vision and, and bring you a little bit of that customer experience. Uh, so right now we are, uh, like customer experience in general is super interesting because, uh, what we are building, if it's magenta or commercials, [00:28:00] Shopify, whatever, it's just a tool.

And it's all, it's all, it's on SI system integrators. And of course, uh, the, the, the merchants, uh, retailers, uh, uh, how they use it, what experience they will create, like no technology can create an experience by itself. And, um, and right now it's all about understanding the customer and understand what experience this customer is expecting.

Uh, for years we were collecting enormous amounts of data. You know, with Google and more different, uh, uh, different other tools, we were collecting a lot of data, but in most cases, those, this data was lost. We were just tracking if we have the right conversion, if we lose clients here or there. But right now with AI, AI, it's not really AI, it's machine learning.

So we can, we have like [00:29:00] amazing machine learning tools. to get something from this data and get and get a better understanding what what experience is really our customer expect expecting because like we may not like some people can run a business for 30 years and they claim that they know everything about their customer and yes, they know something about some groups of customers, but customers are also evolving.

And they have a different experience in different moment of life, you know, like you could have a great experience, uh, visiting a showroom or a brick and mortar store of the brand. And then you go to the website. And you expect something else like, uh, so analyzing data. And I think it can give you a different point of view and give you something that people may just miss in this data.

And of course it can give you some. Results that you don't like. This is something we were talking about before that, uh, we are, we, we want to see the, the, the image that we like, and then you will see from, from those, uh, data that maybe we have to do something different. And then it will completely change the how people are experiencing, uh, the brand.

So customer experience, uh, user experience is super interesting. And it takes us also to, to where we will place AI in, in all that experience. Uh, that's something that we, we briefly discussed before the show, like, uh, how, uh, all those, uh, language models and bots voice, voice bots. Can change the customer experience.

Like many brands, they are, they are, they are building their, uh, advantage of having an amazing customer service. You know, like people who know everything and they're helpful and there are super skilled [00:31:00] people there and they are very hard to find, to train, to keep, it's like, you know, that they are like the big value of the brand.

But now we're. We can see all those, uh, voicebots that are becoming, uh, super, super smart, and, uh, they are always nice and always have, uh, always, always have a good mood and knowledge about everything. And then there is a big question if that will be even better customer experience. Because if, if we cannot recognize if this is a human or not, uh, that's what you said that the, the, the real winners will be brands will be, will keep this human factor.

But the thing is how we recognize that this human factor is there. It's so, so the, the, the customer experience will be a very interesting, uh, field right now. And  because if everyone using the same AI tools to build the same customer experience, we'll have the same customer experience everywhere and how to build advantage if our models will be suggesting similar solutions based on similar data.

Nicole Donnelly: This is so good. It's so good because I think I'm immediately thinking about so many small businesses that I've worked with who really that has been their differentiator. We have great customer service. We're, you know, we're not going to, when someone calls, they're not going to get a phone tree that's going to be directed to someone else.

Right. And so that makes me very worried for these small businesses who don't have access to the same level of technology. How are they going to survive and compete? You know, how are they going to be able to keep up? And, you know, that's, that's scary to me because I think small business is such a critical and important part of any ecosystem.

And I think there's danger if, uh, You know, I just think that scares me. 

Kuba Zwolinski: But that's what happened. What, what, what is happening everywhere? That's, uh, from, uh, from retail to completely different industries, like, uh, agriculture or, uh, any, any business, there is a consolidation. And at some point, the, the small business just is too, it just don't have enough.

Resources to, to make the next step. And, uh, it's not really, I think it's not really destroying the, the, the really small, very specialized boutique business because they will always stay because they, it's enough for them to have only a couple of clients, but it will be super hard for this lower. Mid market, uh, business that are there and, and, you know, they, they, they, they are doing a decent amount of money, but they cannot afford so cool technology.

They cannot afford so big orders to keep the pricing down. Uh, it's hard for them to offer. So competitive logistics, you know, like a same day shipping delivery. And, um, so yeah, maybe, maybe that's like, uh, something we will have to face. That a lot of the smaller businesses, they will have to disappear, which is sad, which is sad because they were making it interesting.

They are different, not perfect. If everything will be perfect, like a perfect logistics, perfect marketing strategy, I don't know. That's something I cannot really imagine. boring, right? 

Nicole Donnelly: It's boring. 

Kuba Zwolinski: You know, 

Nicole Donnelly: I think about like, I mean, there's some really big brands that I think are really doing cool stuff that aren't boring, but there's a lot of brands that start out really cool when they're small and then they get bigger and they just turn vanilla and boring, you know, and that's, you know, That, that's sad.

Kuba Zwolinski: Let's look at the bright side and, uh, right now. Also the tools are becoming more affordable. So smart people. That's true. Right now, tools are just tools. They're stupid. You know, like you still need to, how to ask them how to train them and they need smart people to tune them, to, to, to, to make them really useful.

So at this moment, they are, they are just a tool, maybe, you know, more cool and fancy and, but it's, it's a tool without people. They are, uh, they are, they are nothing and they are affordable. So we'll see, like there, there's nothing we can really change. We have, we can learn how to use it. We can, uh, just. Try to build it in our operations and business and yeah.

And look, what will, what will be next? 

Nicole Donnelly: Well, I think you raise a really interesting like future about having these chatbots that are so advanced because the AI has just gotten so good that they would actually be better than a human at providing customer service. And I was just talking with someone who went to the South by Southwest conference.

Who, you know, I was telling him how much I, you know, we do these interviews with our customers to get content and that interviewing is a real skill, right? Like it's, it's not something that everyone is very good at, and that seems to be like a core differentiator is like how well you can interview. And he was like, well, actually, there's actually now technology companies that are building interviewers that are basically AI chatbots.

where you could actually go and say, you know what? I want to be interviewed by someone who is a 42 year old male with this background and this level of education, and you could basically choose who interviews you. And I just thought to myself, like, oh my goodness, that's, that's It's just amazing to think how much AI can replace a lot of the work that we do, that we think now we think is just irreplaceable, but you know, who knows what it's going to be like down the line.

Which kind of leads me to my next question for you, which is about trust, right? Trust is going to be so much more important for brands, for companies, in the customer experience. And what would you say are like some clear signals of trust that people can kind of rely on as they As AI starts to take over more and more of, of the interface between customers and brands.

What are some signals of trust that brands can kind of hold their hat on or build on that would be connection points with customers in your mind? 

Kuba Zwolinski: Uh, maybe, maybe also that, uh, showrooms are somehow coming back, uh, to, to e commerce like, uh, uh, most of the serious e commerce, they want to bring some physical presence.

Yeah. Yeah. Even if it doesn't have really a financial, you know, uh, sense, because usually showrooms are expensive. They are not really bringing, uh, the return of investment. If you just look [00:38:00] at this channel, but in the same time, it's definitely a different type of, of, of trust. Like even for me, like when I'm trying to show online and I don't know the store, I'm looking for something and it looks okay, but it's like, uh, some, like, I don't know if I can trust and I can see if there is a physical location, if there is an actual place I can go and see if those people are really taking care about details.

Because like online, online is easier. Like, uh, you know, like soon maybe you can just make a prompt. Hey, build me a nice e commerce store that will be selling pillows and it will be targeting, uh, uh, you know, middle aged man. I don't know what, and if I want to buy a pillow. And I would like to go to the store and see if those people there if they care about details This is like a small things that can build a trust.

So You know to see that sound that the brand made a little bit more effort. Um So this is this is something that maybe will bring back. Uh, new generations to to to retail Uh that E commerce will be too easy to fake, you know, like, uh, you, you cannot trust anything, you know, like, uh, it's, it's really like, at some, at some point, uh, someone, someone, uh, watching, watching this, uh, this live cannot be sure if we are real, right?

There might be just two bots, two bots chatting and it would be super hard. To recognize that, it would be like a boss trained to do something like that, talk about this, this range of topics, sometimes make jokes, sometimes make mistakes, sometimes do something stupid. And it's, you know, like, it's a perfect way we can, because the same, you can create a perfect interviewer, but you can also create a perfect image.

Like, for example. I can ask, Hey, AI, I want to be on the show and I want to get some attention from this kind of people. So please build me the right image of Cuba and build the right, the right, the story that this bot will be, will be talking about just to attract this kind of customers. Yeah, because we are here to build business.

We are here to have a nice chat, but also, you know, to just talk to other people on the internet and somehow attract them to talk to us after the show. So creating that with AI is super tempting, just like we are human. We, you know, we talk sometimes really weird stuff and make a lot of stupid mistakes and bot will do only trade mistakes.

That's even better. 

Nicole Donnelly: I mean, it's a blessing and a curse, right? Like every great technology, nuclear technology, smartphones, right? Tremendous upsides, tremendous downsides. [00:41:00] So in that scenario, where you could basically curate a bot of yourself, right? To show up for this interview, Kuba, and you wouldn't have to be here, you just send your bot.

What would you be doing? What would be the work or the, you know, the time, how would you be spending your time? You know, that's what I think about. Like I, I was talking to someone who, there's actually companies now who are developing these humanoid robots that will deliver your pizza, come into your house, set your table for you.

And wash your dishes afterwards, right? And so then of course my brain goes, okay, well eventually I could just have my own in house maid who would just do all my dishes for me and all my clothes washing. And my kids would never have to do their chores. Right. Then, then I think to myself, what would I be doing with my time?

You know, how would, how would you be spending your time? And how would I be spending my time if we had these. You know, what do you think, what would you be doing with your time? Would you be sitting on the beach in, in, in, uh, Tahiti, or what would, what would you [00:42:00] be doing instead? No, for, 

Kuba Zwolinski: for me it's, for me, it's kind of easy.

Like I, I try to distribute my time, um, in different activities. So all I did for years, I was trying to find a reason to do that. So like, uh, I can imagine doing a lot of volunteering and that would be like a, I, I would love to work, but not having. To be paid for that. That would be actually cool. If there would be just some money coming from time to time And I would love to work without worrying of sending invoices.

That's stupid, but you know, that's me. No That would be That would be so, sometimes it could be hard, but it would be much nicer. Yeah. Let you just do some work, bring some, bring some value, try to be useful. Um, but, uh, at some point it may be hard. It may be hard to find something where you can be useful, which is still nice.

Because maybe if some of the, [00:43:00] some of the automation will take a lot of work and the only work that will stay will be like a really nasty work. Yeah. And we don't want to do that. Yeah. Like we, we want to do nice things. And, uh, then, you know, like everyone who wants to do volunteering, there's also some level of volunteering that you go on and on, like it is too much.

It's, uh, uh, so I, I don't know. That's that that's hard. And, um, we all need some, some push to go outside of our comfort zone. And, uh, I don't know how it would look like. Yeah, like we go to work because we should, we have to send invoices, we have to work for money. Uh, we have to do that. And this is also good because No, this is somehow we are forced to do things that sometimes we don't like, uh, how, how we will live if we do only things we like.

That's that's weird. Because at some point we can, it can take us to what you said, it will be boring because if everything is nice and there are no surprises, okay, so maybe everyone or some, some people who needs this kind of surprises, they will be bored. do they will do even more extreme sports.

But on the other hand, you know, if you can have the same adrenaline, just putting, you know, um, uh, some augmented reality stuff or, uh, just virtual reality and have the same adrenaline. And that's, that gives it another thing. And then it takes us to all those science fiction movie when you just in the matrix and you don't have anything.

You just have like the goggles on. You're just, you just, you know, you have all the emotions you want. Yeah. You want to be bored? You are bored. You want to be entertained? You are entertained. You don't have to work. I don't know. This is, uh, this is really interesting. It would be nice to jump, uh, like a hundred years, uh, ahead and see how it will look [00:45:00] like that.

But on the other hand, you know, a hundred years ago, our grand, grand, uh, Parents, they could also not imagine that it will look like that. So, some of the technologies, uh, I remember the first iPhone when it was entering the market, and I thought it's so stupid, you know, that the phone without keyboard, it's like a, it's like it will never work.

Wow. It's like, uh, imagine living right now without a smartphone. It's like, it's impossible. 

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah, it's true. I guess it is hard to imagine. I mean, if you think about like, what I predict is, if you think about 100 years ago, or even 150 years ago, a lot of the hardships or problems that humans face were physical, life was very physically demanding, you know, you were a pioneer, and you had to cross the plains to get to a new place and physically was very Difficult, but it seems like now the challenges have shifted to much more mental.

And I  think that seems to be like that. Those are going to be the bigger challenges going ahead is it's just going to be more. Mental challenges, you know, in the years ahead, then physical, or I don't know, I just think, I think about like, you know, what is this world we're all just going to be like sitting in these chairs with these like, you know, vision pro on and people can be living these separate lives and nobody's going to be talking to each other and, you know, 

Kuba Zwolinski: then you can have even more.

More startups providing, uh, mental health support, uh, online. So you can have like a nice, uh, nice visualization of your therapist and you can just. Uh, switch from your extreme sport to your therapy session, all between going to the kitchen for snack and back, or sometimes, sometimes even without going to the kitchen because the robot will bring it to you.

Yeah, but this is like, you know, all, there are so many movies about that. It's like, we are drifting away too much. Um, [00:47:00] it's, uh, it's, I think we will figure out something to do. Yeah, I 

Nicole Donnelly: think humans are, I mean, we've evolved this far. We will figure it out. 

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah, exactly. It will be different. And some of us may not like it.

And we'll have to try to run away and hide from those changes. But yeah, but it will work somehow. 

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's very exciting to think about, for example, this idea of an immersive shopping experience where, you know, you would shop virtually and it's like this 3d experience where In the shop and able to see in a, in, in a 3D way, what's around you rather than this flat 2D.

What do you think about that as a shopping experience like? Uh, online. 

Kuba Zwolinski: It's too much. I don't know. Maybe if it's if it's more immersive experience, so you can touch it, you have some sensors, you can feel it. Because for me, it's being [00:48:00] in the store and and seeing 3D models is not only about seeing it in 3D, you can see it on the screen, but it's more about smelling, touching.

So that's, uh, Just, just going in the 3D virtual reality, no, I don't, I don't think so. It's, it's too complicated. I get to the simple. You just want to, if you want to buy something online, it's like, I, I see more, uh, opportunity in, in like a really good, uh, voice prompts that you are just, you know, walking, you're walking on the street and suddenly you think you need new shoes.

So you say, Hey Siri, I need new shoes that will be matching my shirt. And it's like, it's blue and it has short sleeves and, uh, where I can get those shoes near my location. So this is like a local shopping or, uh, just suggest me something. So those product recommendations and, uh, voice, uh, voice AI may be much easier, like, you know, [00:49:00] having all those just to see 3d product.

I don't know. No, no, definitely not for me. 

Nicole Donnelly: Interesting. 

Kuba Zwolinski: Maybe it's also, it's also a more global trend because what like a meta try to do that, try to create this. You know, a virtual world of 3D, everything, and it's really not working yet. So maybe we are not ready for this experience, or this experience is just an overkill.

It's, it's like, it's over complicating simple things. And, and, uh, after all, it, You know, and more simplicity in everyday tasks is better. 

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah, that's, that's very, very interesting. I love what you said earlier about e commerce brands creating brick and mortar and you see, you know, so that, uh, the shopping experience is not just, it becomes much more, you've said simple, but it's almost like complex because the needs of [00:50:00] humans are becoming like the way they want to shop.

It differs, you know, but like I, sometimes I love to go in the store and feel in touch the fabric, but sometimes I want to go to that same store online in a different scenario. So it's like, it's like meeting the customer where they are, depending on whatever the job is that needs to be done. And those jobs are getting a lot more complicated because people want more and more convenience in how they want it to be more what they want when they want it.

And having to meet those customer needs are just, it's becoming much more challenging for brands because. We're becoming much more demanding as consumers with what we offer in the moment. Yeah, 

Kuba Zwolinski: the experience is even like blending. Uh, that's also one of, of, of our projects that we, we have a fashion store.

And in the fashion store, you have a, a changing room, uh, with displays where you can browse the whole, inventory of the store. So for example, like it's all covered with RFID.  So you enter the changing room and the display shows you some suggested look at different looks or different color, different sizes.

So you can choose what's in the store or what's not. So for example, I'm trying a blue shirt. But, uh, the display shows me that there is a red shirt and red shirt. Actually, it looks better there, but it's not in the store. So I I'm in the store, but I can actually order that from this display diary. So this is a, this is a big question.

If I'm in the store, but I'm ordering on this digital interface without talking to anyone in the store, if I'm ordering online or I'm ordering in the store, that's not so obvious. Or if I'm going to the shelf, I'm picking my stuff and uh, Then I just, uh, buy it on my phone. Right. I've 

Nicole Donnelly: done that before. I'm like, Oh, in the store, I'm just going to order it online.

Kuba Zwolinski: Sometimes they may have it in that it may be exactly the [00:52:00] same thing that you are holding in your hand, but you are ordering online because you don't want to carry it home. You want someone to send it to your, to your place. You don't need it today. You, it may be tomorrow, but today I don't want to carry a big bag of, I don't know, winter jacket.

So I want to have this winter jacket. I try it. This is exactly this winter jacket, the last model in this store, but I will buy it online because it's more convenient. So that's a, the experience is really, it's not online and offline anymore. It's, it's more, more complex. Yes, it integrated, but in the same time, it's super important to unify that.

Because a lot of big brands, I think you know it from, you know, your partners, clients, uh, they still have a problem with defining the right goals. Or, or, you know, performance metrics per channel, because if you have this kind of combined channels, how will you measure, [00:53:00] you know, if it's, if the store is really successful, if people buy most of the stuff online from this changing room.

Yeah, or if the changing room is working if the store is having more orders It's it's difficult and it's it's uh I don't know Many brands that can really do it the right way Like most of them they still doing it the old fashion that every channel has its own Uh metrics and they need to reach some numbers And, but that creates a lot of, a lot of, uh, different challenges that people in the store, they don't encourage people to go online because it's not their business.

It's the same, like if someone is online, they don't want to go to the store because it's expensive. If you need it to send it to the store, it's like, so it's, it's, it's kind of complicated. And, uh, it's not really my competences. Like I'm, I'm looking at that from, from a site. I'm just delivering, bringing technology [00:54:00] to make it happen.

But in this case, technology is just a small part because it's there. It's like, it's not rocket science to, to build this unified commerce technology, but to analyze and make it work with people with all the process. This is a big challenge. So, um, unified commerce is, is the path that everyone has to go, but it, it needs time, it needs time and figuring out the best, the best approach, how to measure that and how to make sure that.

You really know the, the lifetime value of your customer. It doesn't matter where in what channel, uh, that the purchase is done. So that, that AI, all new technologies are coming to help. But I think there's no, not like a one single perfect, uh, 

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Attribution is just becoming so much more challenging to measure.

And I think about like, uh, some of my B2B clients who are in e commerce and I mean, that's ultimately where we want them to be is, you know, we have them where they have this, they have this e commerce store that's kind of on the side and they still have their internal sales people that are doing. There are, you know, calls and emails and offline sales.

And these, these are legacy B2B companies who have been used to this way of selling and now trying to integrate this, you know, online e commerce way of selling is a completely different model that has to be integrated in the way they do business, but that is like ultimately the end vision. I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if there could be a complete integration of the front end and the back end of their whole, all of their technology stack and their operations, first and foremost.

So that all those offline stores are all transacting through that same e commerce store and it's not just like these separate things that are happening It's all kind of happening together, but it does it takes a lot of a lot of work and patience to get there Do you do you have any? Final thoughts. Oh my gosh.

Kuba Zwolinski: It's always interesting. Gosh. And it's really hard to keep it in the frame, especially like the All those topics are not, are not simple.

It's not like we can just cover one question elsewhere. It takes too much, uh, deeper analysis or problems. So I think after all, it's, you know, we are trying to build a better experience. We have to learn. We have to, uh, somehow remember that tools are just tools. If it's a commerce platform, if it's AI, um, it's, it's not to replace us.

It's just to make us more efficient. This is what, how we started that I'm trying to learn. I try to find tools to make our business smarter and more efficient. It's not really about making it, it's, it's more about having people [00:57:00] more happy, delivering work faster with even better quality. That, that, that would be great.

The, the ultimate goal, and that's why we need all those technologies. But it's, the final thought. I think that technology is great. But too much technology will not solve the problem. Uh, it will create more problems. So it's, it's really right now important to choose smart, to, to, to simplify a lot of things, choose the most important problems, try to help, try to find help in technology, but don't believe that taking all the best technologies from the, from the world and combining them into one system, they will suddenly or immediately.

Solve all problems. Every technology is causing its own problems if we like it or not. 

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah, that's a really good point. It starts with your people and your process and really honing that in and having a very clear vision [00:58:00] for what value you're bringing to the market and how you're going to deliver that value and then building your processes and everything or refining them around that vision.

Kuba Zwolinski: And analyzing. That's where all those, a lot of those AI tools are really great. Like that. It helps to do a lot of experiment and analyze because before you hire like a thousands of people to analyze data that those amounts of information right now, you can do it much quicker and, uh, and get, get some good insights.

Nicole Donnelly: This has been such a fantastic conversation. Cuba, my gosh, 

Kuba Zwolinski: it was like, uh, it was, it was great chatting and, um, 

Nicole Donnelly: Well, what's, um, what's, um, I know you're a big adventurer and, um, you like to do whitewater kayaking, I believe. 

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah. One of my things, but my favorite is a multi sport called adventure [00:59:00] racing and adventure racing is a very exotic sport.

It's like not many people know about it that exists. But there's a great opportunity. This is the first time ever that Hollywood thought about adventure racing, and there is a movie about adventure race that came to the big screen. Yes. This is Arthur, the King, and it's based on a true story. So for people who would like to really learn about some.

Pretty cool outdoor multi sport, and it's a team sport, so it's even more interesting. Um, there's, there's like a family movie, but, uh, it's, it, it shows a lot of interesting aspects of adventure race. So for us, for people who are, who are like athletes in adventure racing, it's super exciting to see that, you know, like, uh, the big players, big, uh, screens can now host, uh, adventure racing.

Uh, so yeah, it's called 

Nicole Donnelly: Art of the King, 

Kuba Zwolinski: like Arthur,  Arthur, like, like, like, you know, the King Arthur. Just it's, yeah, it's, it's about, yeah, like you will see about what is all about. It's about adventure. 

Nicole Donnelly: I'm super curious. I've actually never heard of adventure racing, but I'm definitely 

Kuba Zwolinski: it's a very outdoor multi sport.

Uh, and it's also interesting that from the very beginning, uh, there, there's like a team, uh, is built of, uh, four people. But they have to be mixed gender. So at least one, one woman, one man, the team, it creates a very interesting challenges because it's an endurance sport. You are on the course for a hundred, 150 hours, nonstop running, biking, paddling.

And having four people with different genders, you know, like being not sleeping for a couple days, having a lot of, uh, you know, um, I would say sometimes stress, sometimes you are tired after two, three days and you have to deal with that. It's, it's, it's a very interesting sport, but, uh, but a new sport because it's hard to follow.

Imagine like how to cover with media, a sport that, you know, takes seven days and nights. So yeah, I'm not going to try that. There is an Amazon series, uh, echo challenge, Fiji. They did it in a pretty good way, but I think they spent so much money on covering that, that right now they put on hold and more additions, but it's also interesting if someone wants to learn more about adventure racing, Uh, those two are really great.

Both the, uh, Arthur, the king and, uh, echo challenge Fiji. We will echo challenge. Fiji is a documentary. So this is like some thousand teams. They got a camera crew following them on the course. So it's like a 

Nicole Donnelly: race for adventure racing. Yes. Yes. 

Kuba Zwolinski: It's like a reality show, you know, with Bear Grylls. jumping from the helicopter and all that stuff.

So it's, it's, it's fun to watch, but it's even more fun to, to be a part of it, to be a competitor. So that's, you know, outdoors stuff is, is really, um, is it really a great, uh, a great, uh, retreat, uh, something that helps, uh, you know, recover, recharge batteries, you know, like get really tired, physically tired.

That's like, I don't know if you feel it. Uh, many people in our, like it or, uh, more less physical work have problems with sleeping because after day of work, we are super tired, but we are mentally tired, it's not a physical thing. So it's really like our body, like our mind is tired. We feel like it's, it's like a, it was a disaster.

Like the whole day was long, but our body is actually not tired. That's why we have some. Many problems with sleep. Exercise is important and I can see [01:03:00] some people don't don't believe that that I can go for a competition and you know, run bike for 700 kilometers and I, I just recharge my batteries during that.

It's, uh, it's because my, my body becomes really tired, not like just tired from thinking and. Just combining strategies and thinking what to do next, where the business will take us, but just pure, simple, physical, uh, physically tired. 

Nicole Donnelly: So that's, that's a good thing. That is a great thing. I'm going to check this out.

Kuba Zwolinski: So there are so many beautiful outdoors in us.

That's like, I love it. Whenever I'm in the U. S. It's so like a big space, like in Europe, you know, it's everything is crowded. Even you go to Alps or some other places, there are nice outdoors, but it's like, it's not like you can walk for days and not meet anyone. And in the U. S. there are so many, still so many places like that.

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, man, this has been so great. Let's do it again. Let's do it again. Thank you so much. Wisdom and insights. And I love, I think you really shared some really great information on kind of what the future of e commerce can look like and, um, what, you know, what a great e commerce experience can be.

Thank you so much. And thanks everyone for tuning in. We appreciate you joining and hope everyone has a great day. 

Kuba Zwolinski: Thank you very much. And, uh, if you want to reach me, you can reach me on LinkedIn and I will be also happy to continue all those topics.

Nicole Donnelly: Yeah. Thanks so much for reminding. Yep. You can reach Cuba here on LinkedIn. He's also at snowdog. com. You can find him there too. 

Kuba Zwolinski: No, no snowdog. com is a great us company manufacturing a snow dog, uh, like a snow mobile thing. Actually, a lot of people are confused with that. And, uh, our, we are snow dog.

Actually, that's a long story and funny story for a different show when I tried to acquire snowdog. com for a long time and finally that Snowmobile company, it's not [01:06:00] Snowmobile, but it's hard to explain. Uh, they, they got the domain. So from time to time, I got a lot of calls, uh, how people can buy that, uh, that machine, maybe I should create a reseller, uh, or a dealership.

You can create your own e commerce 

Nicole Donnelly: store. 

Kuba Zwolinski: Yeah, I can create an e commerce for Snowdog. So yes, if you are listening to us and you want a new e commerce, just come to Snowdog. com. I think we will, we will make a deal.